Forum Topic

Parking Restrictions in LBH&F - Please help me challenge a PCN

I am challenging a Parking Charge Notice.The wording of the Restriction Notice was: “Junction of Aspenlea Road to O/S 25 Greyhound Road”In all my years in the Borough, O/S = outside = on the same side of the road as 25 Greyhound Road.I parked outside 26 Greyhound Road, i.e. opposite 25 Greyhound Road and still received a PCN.I would appreciate your help/suggestions in my challenge, as I believe that “O/S” cannot be taken to mean “opposite”.LBH&F will not accept the validity of my challenge to their interpretation on the wording.How can I make them see sense?

Catherine Mowat ● 6961d14 Comments

Think you'll have enough there to get them to drop the PCN - but take some photos of the other signs you mentioned. You could also ask LBHF which sign in the "Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002" the parking suspension signs were meant to conform to. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch1 is a link to these, parking restrictions seen to be around the 640-650 numbers, and they have defined minimum and maximum dimensions.From what I've read, there have to be Valid signs at all entrances to the road where temporary restrictions are in force i.e. The fact that the signs on the lampposts don't comply wouldn't automatically get you off the hook, if the signs at the entrance were Valid. Good luck, let us know how you get on. If the council still reject to you, you'll have to go to PATAS, but at least you shouldn't be any worse off by doing so and assuming your appeal is successful you'll get all your removal fees etc back. I think you should make all the points you can, because only one of them has to be correct and just putting all the points across might make LBHF decide it's too much hassle and give up rejecting your appeal.

Andrew Jones ● 6960d

Thanks - that part of LBHF web-site really useful.It was pretty much the Suspension Sign, only called Advance Warning, with the wording I quoted previously.I am going to stick to my assertion that, in all the years I have lived in H'smith (almost 25), "O/S" has always meant "outside", i.e. "on the same side of the road as ..." and has never meant "opposite", i.e. "on the other side of the road from ...".  This is currently the terminology on the handwritten LBHF signs further east down Greyhound Road for the comings and goings for the Stella Artois Tournament.  There is a clear distinction made between "outside" and "opposite", depending on which side of the road the notice is displayed and what address/location the notice refers to.

Catherine Mowat ● 6960d

A Temporary Traffic Regulation Order is the legal authority that the council has to have in place in order to suspend the parking in a case like this, however for the order to be enforcable, the correct and appropriate signing has to be in place. If you look at http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/Transport_and_Streets/Parking/Parking_zones/20550_Restrictions_Signs.aspthen I think the type of sign that would have to be in place would have to be similar to the yellow suspension sign shown - though I suspect that a printed sheet of paper with had a yellow suspension sign printed on it would probably be legally sufficient if it was posted at the required locations. The signing would almost certainly have to conform to regulations re size of characters, where and how frequently the signing was located. Were there any such signs ( with the yellow bits)anywhere along the road?The fact that other cars were only ticketed/removed on one day might be a mitigating factor, but wouldn't on it's own be sufficient grounds for appeal e.g. They are currently doing roadworks on Haydn Park Road, W12 and there are signs on the lampposts saying that parking is suspended all along the street, but there are still plenty of cars there, but none of them are ticketed. When the contractors who are currently woring at one end of the road start moving up the road, I'm sure that any cars that get in the way WILL be removed if they are still there when the contractors move to the next stretch of road.It might be the case that there is a requirement for the council to leaflet residents beforehand (see http://www.sutton.gov.uk/environment/traffictransport/trafficorders.htm ) but without refering to the official regulations ( rather than in this case, Sutton's interpretation of them) I don't know if this in fact the case.Good luck! PS All the comments above are simply my own opinion and shouldn't be taken as a statement of fact!

Andrew Jones ● 6960d

I am quoting the exact wording on the Notice hung on the lampposts.  The more I think about it, the more I think it is not LBHF's Notice/wording - hence the inaccuracy.The only action taken against cars parked on 'my' side of the road was on 17th May, i.e. 2 days after the work started.  There were several cars parked on 'my' side of the road when I left for work in the morning - presumably, other people were able to move them before they were removed.  People began to park again on 'my' side of the road after 19th May up to 27th May when the restriction ended - no tickets/removals.During prior work further down Greyhound Road, towards Queen's Club, the cars on 'my' side of the road were not removed and when the 2nd phase started, on 22nd May, cars on 'my' side of the road were not removed.  That makes me think someone knew the weakness of their case.Good idea - will try to get a copy of the Temporary Traffic Order - whatever that is.Thanks again for your suggestions/support.I just want to know where I went wrong in parking where I did.

Catherine Mowat ● 6960d

Catherine,You seemed to be very specific about the wording on the restrictions - is this because you have a copy of one of the contractors notices, or because LBHF gave you the wording? It sounds like LBHF are being intransigent, or just doing an automatic rejection without really looking at the facts, so maybe you'll have to take it all the way to PATAS.If it does get that far, at the very least you should try and get a copy of the official Temporary Traffic Order, and I'm sure that you'd be able to persuade the independent adjudicator that the Parking Restriction as posted up on the lampposts should have been more correctly and precisely worded and that because it wasn't, your PCN is invalid. I imagine that there would have been enough room on the notices to include a phrase along the lines of "from Jct. of Aspenlea Road to outside of 25 Greyhound Road, both sides of road" which would be far clearer. Also if O/S is meant to mean opposite side, then it should say 'O/S of 26...'. It's a sloppy notice, simple as that.Did any other cars on 'your' side of the road get a ticket  or only on June 17th?

Andrew Jones ● 6960d

William,Thanks for your support.  I am trying to establish whether LBH&F has ever issued a Notice of Parking Restrictions in which:a)"O/S" has ever meant anything other than "outside"b)"outside" does not mean "on the same side of the road as No xxx"

Catherine Mowat ● 6960d

Could also mean "off-side", or even "other side".  What is one to make of it anyway?  I am a firm believer in fighting to the end - it worked for me.

William Hosking ● 6960d

No - I am saying that I parked legally because the wording of the Advance Warning of the Parking Bay Suspensions was incorrectly worded.  The Notice said "O/S", which has always meant "outside" and I parked "opposite".PS:  Is that Dave Pointer ex-Eurotunnel ?

Catherine Mowat ● 6960d

The thick plottens !PCN states: RTA 1991 - Section 66 and Schedule 6 as amended.Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force.Parking Control Letter states: Greyhound Road was subject to a Section 14 road closure by means of a Temporary Traffic Order.  Signs were in place warning of the same.  (Not true - no signs to that effect)Notices tied to lampposts on both sides of the road stated:  Advance WarningGreyhound Road Road - Parking Bay SuspensionsFrom 8AM Monday 15th May 2006 to Saturday 3rd June 2006Phase 1 - Jct. of Aspenlea Road to O/S 25 Greyhound Road          15th May - 27th MayPhase 2 - O/S 25 Greyhound Road to Jct. Fulham Palace Road          22nd May - 3rd JuneNo Parking, Waiting, Loading or Unloading due to Essential work on Water MainFor further enquiries - 0208 222 6352Notices were A5, black writing on orange background, laminated. Not the usual LBH&F handwritten ones for removals, etc. No mention of LBH&F.Tel.Nr. is actually that of the contractors, Laing O'Rourke.My car not removed until pm of 17th June, no cars in 1st Phase zone removed from opposite the restricted zone before or after that date.No cars in 2nd Phase zone removed from opposite the restricted zone at all.

Catherine Mowat ● 6960d

From what Catherine has said it sounds to me that Catherine is challenging the PCN because she thought she'd parked legally, on the basis of her interpretation of the restriction notice. On the face of it, I would have thought O/S is short for outside as well.The restriction you've mentioned, are you talking about what's written on the PCN or what was actually up in the area where you parked? Was the restriction a permanent one, or a temporary one e.g. the sort you get when people are moving house? Was the restriction on a post on the same side of the road as No 26, same side of the road as No 25 or somewhere else?

Andrew Jones ● 6960d

"Basically you're saying that you did park illegally but the PCN was issued incoreectly? "The last time I checked we lived in a country in which the individual was innocent until proven guilty which means that you can't park illegally until a ticket has been issued coreectly or even correctly.

Paul Corcoran ● 6961d

Basically you're saying that you did park illegally but the PCN was issued incoreectly?

Dave Pointer ● 6961d

Basically you're saying that you did park illegally but the PCN was issued incoreectly?

Dave Pointer ● 6961d

You could try a letter to either of these people, but at all events keep at it saying that notices that are not clear cannot be enforced - it's worth itThank you for your email. The head of Parking Services is David Taylor and the director responsible for Parking is Nigel Pallace. Regards Natalie Luck Principal Officer - Permit SectionParking Services (Environment Services Department)natalie.luck@lbhf.gov.ukTel: (020) 7371 5678 Fax: (020) 8753 3267London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulhamhttp://www.lbhf.gov.ukDirector of Environment Services Department: Nigel Pallace

William Hosking ● 6961d