Forum Topic

Street drinkers urinating openly at Little Brook Green

Maybe the council could comment please? Little Brook Green is the small island of grass opposite the Access Self Storage shop,and this place can be seen in front of you as you drive out of the Tesco carpark before you join Shepherd's Bush Rd and it is opposite Brook Green.This place is close to the police station in Shepherd's Bush Rd.I have seen drunk men who sit on the benches here drinking which face Sheperd's Bush Rd urinating openly in the middle of this green in full view of people wallking by and leaving Tesco car park.Sometimes the police turn up and take the cans of lager off the men but when the police leave the men just urinate openly and clearly the police action is not doing much good here.Wouldn't it be a good idea if the council took away the benches here so people can't sit down and drink like this.The drinkers also urinate up against the acess self storage building in a alcove set back from the pavement,they urinate up against the trees by the bus stand on little brook green,and the urinate against the hedge in the middle of brook green.It would not be difficult for the police to sit in a car by little brook green on the bus stand wait for the men to urinate and then arrest them for it.Most of the drinkers here don't speak English and police say "who here speaks English" when they go and speak to the men,which does nothing to stop the men urinating when police go.

John Collins ● 5951d47 Comments

Wouldnt it just be easier to build a urinal ?

H JOHNSON ● 5940d

Come on Mr Jennings don't stop contributing to this thread just because I am coming across as a waffly sexist mentalist.Some people aren't very good at being concise are they ha ha!

John Collins ● 5945d

Look how the authorities have ignored this thread.Dreadfull.It's no wonder people are disengaged from local politics.And look how if you don't present your case in a "professional and middle class way ie reflecting the general middle class politically correct mantra " people start saying "if you havent spent loads of time campaigning on these issues I dont want to help you" or if you express a different opinion they say its "preposterous" or if you express a different opinion they say its "racist" or if you express your opinions diffeerently they say "I dont want to be associated with your campaign" or if you express yourself differently ie not concisely and politically correctly they feel free to patronise you when you show passion and be dismissive .No wonder many people dont feel empowered to complain.Then the bullying and incompetent authorities win and nothing gets done for another five years.Its just the arrogance of local councils I'm afraid.It's the same in Wandsworth;just the same. Look at the effort I have put in to flag up these points and look at the contempt that the council have treated me by ignoring me.But then I dont live in a 2 million pound house in Brook Green and send my kids to St Pauls Girls School and send concise and politically correct Emails licking the arse of the incompetent police and h and f fulham. Its just English snobbery;forget the plebs dismiss them they arent educated;dump the drunks outside osram court social housing those people arent empowered to complain and if they do complain we'll ignore them,English snobs dumping the street drinkers outside the homes of muslims in osram court,racistsyou dont want the street drinkers outside your homes so you dump the street drinkers outside the homes of muslims at osram court;abusing the fact that they dont have the same networks of complaining to the authorities as the brook green residents association do who never wanted osram court built in the first place.Its double standards everytime.

John Collins ● 5945d

"Sorry if I was rude Frances I assumed you were a bloke not a woman to be honest;as I knew a bloke with your name.I would have been more polite if I knew you were a woman thats a bit sexist I know but there you go thats life."That's about as uncivilised as urinating in the street.  I think you've had your say on this matter, John.  30 posts in one thread is quite enough, and you're not even a Hammersmith resident.  I think it's time for we visitors to leave this to the residents to sort out.  I certainly don't want to be associated with your campaign after your last remark.

Richard Jennings ● 5946d

Dear Frances and others,Please could you or someone else from the Brook Green Residents Association send an Email to the police to ask them how many men have been issued with a fine for urinating on Little Brook Green over the last 12 months.Because this would tell us if the police are taking some action here.Or how many men have been fined for drunk and disorderly on Brook Green or Little Brook Green.I think it would be usefull to know this information.I think it is more likely that the police will reply if a local person with a bit of clout sends them an Email ie someone from Brook Green Residents Association.And maybe you could ask them to put a reply on this thread or start a new thread on this forum as well with this information.Sorry if I was rude Frances I assumed you were a bloke not a woman to be honest;as I knew a bloke with your name.I would have been more polite if I knew you were a woman thats a bit sexist I know but there you go thats life. Cheers.

John Collins ● 5946d

Frances - don't bail out of this thread just because i said you were an apologist for the police and the council,that is just a rude comment i made and its only a guess too: because people like Richard Jennings are asking some good questions.Richard asks the council/police what are the crime statistics to show how many men have been fined for urinating at Little Brook Green in the last year.This is a blooming good question and would indicate if the police are taking any action or not over this.My ideas are remove the benches from little brook green,put up signs on little brook green to tell the the drunks to use the toilets at tesco,and set up an open air urinal on little brook green.None of these ideas have been done before.Today men were outside 84 Brook Green on the benches by the tennis courts outside the house with the blue plaque on it;hoods up booze in hand at midday.The PCSO police turned up on their piaggio silver mopeds saw what the ten Eastern European men were up to and promptly did absolutely nothing they did not even speak to the men.The police community support officers parked their scooters on the opposite side of the road from st pauls girls school took off their crash helmets and from 1155am-1215pm today they basked in the sunshine sitting on their scooter chatting; i know they were police community support officers because it said so on the back of their jackets.It's just an absolute joke this slackness how britain ever ran an empire when the authorities cant even kick a few drunks off brook green is beyond me;oh yes we didnt have political correctness then.Yes I have Emailed the police;and spoken to the police in the past but what good does it do;absolutely none.I live in Wandsworth so this is not on my doorstep so its not a main priortiy of mine;so I dont know what work you did in past Frances as im not a local;no offense meant to you either. This place in Hammersmith is just a part of my day sometimes.If people say im racist i dont mind because i havent written anything racist;although people might guess that i am trying to be racist due to an odd fantasy of theirs.If all the urinators have an eastern european accent when they shout to their mates its not racist to assume they are from eastern europe i would have thought;you wouldnt have to be inspector cluso to work that out!

John Collins ● 5946d

I'd be interested to hear what you've personally done about the problem. For my part, I've spent hours and hours of personal time in voluntary service and police and council liaison to try and see what I could do about this issue.  You apparently didn't even have contact information for either or have any knowledge of measures which have already been tried or put in place which suggests you have actually not been very active up until now, or not in any positive way anyhow. For example, have you contacted your local SNT to complain that you don't think they're taking enour notice? I should repeat to you too that not all the drunks are Eastern European, the original problem from a few years ago was collections of local indigenous drunks, most of whom had homes of one sort or another in the borough - before you deride everybody as either apologist or class-ist, you might question whether or not your comments could be seen as racist. This will be my last response to this thread as my time is better spent in dealing with people and groups who are prepared to actually deal with the issues as they exist and not as they choose to see them.

Frances McAllister ● 5946d

Where there is a will to fix a problem there is a way to fix a problem.The police and the council clearly havent got either the will or the way to fix the problem.No wonder people rant and generalise out of frustration.Maybe the authorities have booted the drunks off Little Brook Green temporaily if there were none there at the weekend;because on a sunny day they are usually out urinating in force and shouting at the top of their voice in their Eastern European accents.I'm interested in the facts.And I've seen what the facts are over the last five years.It sounds like you are an aplologist for the incompetent authorities Frances.The authorities need a hard kick up the arse.Its absolutely sickening to see hundreds of police and PCSO's walking down Shepherds Bush Rd and not lifting a finger to stop the urinating drunks;very very frustrating.

John Collins ● 5946d

John - I've said in previous responses that this issue needs a combined approach not a divided one.  Therefore, we, the local residents should not be divided either because basically we all want to see an end to this problem  - it is just not helpful to make this into a class issue - it really isn't one. Nor are all drunks homeless East Europeans (nor are all East Europeans drunks for that matter) - you have made too many assumptions and far too many generalisations and that approach actually prevents progress.  You've also ignored the work that many people (including myself) have done over the past few years to try and improve this situation and whilst it still exists and it's still awful, it has improved no matter what you say. For example, the weather was good at the weekend and I didn't see any drunks while I was going about my business in and around Tesco.  All the websites and information you asked for is on the council's website, many of the measures you suggest have been tried before or considered (e.g. signs in Polish and in English were dotted all round the area when the drinking ban came into force, 'wet'centres for drinkers like the ones you suggested were considered but no-one wants to have a wet centre next door to them). I've said before, this is not a simple issue, there are lots of elements to it and like it or not, you can't just bang people permanently up for loitering or for drinking.  We have to devise practical and permanent solutions and target the people who can help us (the police, the council) rather than ranting at them. Why don't you get involved in a positive way and try to help change things - For info: Avonmore.BrookGreen.snt@met.police.uk or Addison.snt@met.police.uk

Frances McAllister ● 5947d

When I suggested to Greg from H and F council that street drinkers were being pushed from Brook Green to Little Brook Green, Greg wrote that he thought my suggestion was 'proposterous'.But then I typed 'street drinkers on brook green' into google.I read the first report that comes up called 'proposals for a controlled drinking area for the borough of hammersmith and fulham police report'.This is what Inspector Bill Heasman wrote in this report in 2006." Avonmore and Brook Green: the partnership activity on Brook Green periodically pushes the problem of street drinkers to the area known as Little Brook Green this has been compounded by the removal of many of the benches from Brook Green itself'. So Inspector Heasman seems to be saying that yes the street drinkers are pushed from Brook Green (thats where the posh people live and the public school st pauls is) down to little Brook Green (thats where the social housing/council flats is).Maybe my idea is not so preposterous after all remember one of the poshest public schools in the country st pauls is also on brook green theyve got a bit of clout too.Also why were the benches taken away from Brook Green but left at Little Brook Green .Seems like the Brook Green Residents Association has got a bit of clout with the authorities;and I noticed that the brook green residents association were campaigning against the building of social housing at osram court in the first place.Maybe the residents of social housing at osram court dont have the clout with the authorities.Maybe Tesco at Brook Green should be approached and asked to donate money to help the council to set up a day centre for the Little Brook Green drinkers seeing as they used to sell their own brand lager for 28p a can.5 years of seeing all this on little brook green  day in day out frustration has built up here thats what this is all about im pretty sick of seeing it.Could it be residents on Brook Green dont want the little brook green benches taken away as they dont want the drinkers back opposite their two million pound houses;and would prefer the street drinkers were watering the garden outside social housing at osram court on little brook green? As soon as council officials start using words like 'preposterous' it usually means that you are getting near to the truth and you have touched a nerve.Case closed.

John Collins ● 5947d

Put the words 'street drinkers in hammersmith' into google there is loads about this on there. Put 'street drinkers little brook green' and 'street drinkers brook green' into google too.Seems like long standing cultural links to Poland ie the Polish Centre in Ravenscourt Hammersmith is behind the Eastern European men being here.

John Collins ● 5947d

80p is all it costs to buy a can of Tesco's own brand lager.So what does the manager of Tesco have to say about selling ultra cheap lager 100 metres away from where street drinkers have been urinating on the green outside social housing flats where his/her most local customers live.This is totally immoral and outrageous.This is a good angle for a story for the media to use for this as in the national press stories about increasing price of booze but by too little increase in price.

John Collins ● 5947d

If this thread gets picked up by the media please put a link on this thread so we can read the article or watch the tv footage.Thanks.

John Collins ● 5947d

Does anyone know the names of the local newspapers for Hammersmith and Fulham.Or the Email addresses of the good journalists on these papers.Because I want to inflame this situation by contacting the local papers and TV and tell them all about the content of this thread etc.To try and give this issue maximum publicity.If anyone wants to contact the local papers and tell them about this thread please do then they might start writing stories about it or start a campaign about it.It's obvious the local council and police are treating local people with contempt with regard to urinaters.Hundreds of police walk by and nothing gets done.Why not people in the media use contacts to get London Tonight Tv crews or the ITV 6pm or bbc 6pm tv crews down to little brook green to get this onto the tv.The council and the police dont like things like that which means its a good thing to do.Some people on here must work in media etc ie the brackenbury village residents in the posh bit of hammersmith by godlophin and latymer school they all work at the bbc dont they? Cant they chuck some petrol on the flames and get this on the tv.Try and annoy the council and the police as much as possible as they have wound us up.Why not try and get it into the national press too as it is a london wide problem as well.What about adrian chiles from the one show on bbc hes down in brackenbury village isnt he ! come on media folk lets kick up a right royal stink about this and stick it to the tories and old bill in the media

John Collins ● 5947d

H and F council should employ men who drive around the borough in mini buses.The men would go to the locations that street drinkers drink and offer the men a lift to a council run day centre. If the men refuse to go they phone the police the police arrest the street drinkers for drinking in public or for urinating saying complaints have been received about them.The day centre would be a nice place to go where the men are helped with their drink problems etc given food based on a 'crisis at christmas' place where street drinkers voluntarily go at xmas and enjoy going to.If people like Greg from H and F council are writing things on this thread like ' I do not want to put in toilet facilities at little brook green because it will attract more street drinkers and make the drinkers stay their for longer' then the problem won't go away and in five years time I'll come back and see the same problem.I live in Wandsworth and I know nothing about H and F council apart from seeing men for 5 years at Brook Green.I think H and F council is a tory council and if they are anything like Wandsworth council they will want to keep council tax low at the expense of the most vulnerable people in society ie people who need social housing accomodation etc.So if you keep council tax low you dont provide day centres for unfortunate poor men who drink on the streets its a sort of tory pact with the devil it seems to me;i find it rather sad and uncivilised;England did not used to be like this;yes there were the tramps who drank the meths and had bottles of booze wrapped up in brown paper bags in the 1980s who sat out in the parks but not just mass uncivilised behaviour year after year like at little brook green.Then when  someone complains they are smeared as 'preposterous' as Greg from H and F council smeared me.It is 'preposterous' that this Little brook green disgrace is allowed to continue a total failure from both the police and h and f council.Would a Labour H and F council treat these foreign men in what I call a racist way by not giving them a day centre to go to and the help they need there.I think a Labour council would put these Eastern European street drinkers high up on their agenda;they are people and they need help.Not just waffle about how local off liscences dont sell high strength lager now and how there is a controlled drinking zone and robust policing is going on its just a load of rubbish and spin and bollocks.Now hopefully some people who actually live in H and F and who know more about this will come on here and take on these issues.

John Collins ● 5947d

There are three houses where I live that are occupied by Eastern europeans, they are very nice houses and the people who live in them are all working. They still congregate in groups at the bottom of the road and drink and urinate where they stand

Jean Gilmore ● 5947d

Read an old thread on here called 'drunken behaviour' .According to that thread the Little Brook Green street drinkers live in Shepherds Bush Housing Project in Shepherds Bush Rd.If the men say they cant speak English if the police wanted to arrest them as urinators and fine them wouldnt the police have to get a translator in to speak to the men to find out their details etc.Maybe this is too much hassle?

John Collins ● 5948d

The benches are in a place where people wont want to sit its very noisy and faces the shepherds bush rd and scruffy place.The police have legal powers to take alcohol off any member of the general public if complaints about them have been made ie complaints of rowdiness etc.But in reality my guess is the police take beer off street drinkers and pour it away when no complaint has been made as I have seen police do that.But then they go to Tesco and get more cheap lager after watering the garden so to speak.Is the reason the police arent taking action against the urinators because the men dont speak English so its a problem with the paperwork or something ie takes loads of time etc? Alot of these men live in housing in Shepherds Bush Rd,there is a building where they live there which is well known.

John Collins ● 5948d

"Research shows that most street drinkers in H&F actually do have a home to go to anyway, so it’s not a problem of not having a roof over their heads or access to a toilet."That's very interesting and relevant.  Most of us have a roof over our heads, and while we may go out occasionally, and even congregate with our friends in public, we manage to find toilets in shops, etc or wait till we get home. There is no reason why street drinkers who have homes should not so the same.You have said that there is a borough-wide controlled drinking area.  Does that mean that people drinking on places like Little Brook Green are committing an offence?  If so, why are they not prosecuted?  Why are these people not prosecuted for indecent exposure or whatever the offence is for public urination?  If there were a few arrests and prosecutions, then they would soon learn to take their booze home and drink it there.You talk about robust enforcement, but it sounds as though it's not very effective.  How many prosecutions have been made against street drinking and urination on Little Brook Green in the last, say, 6 months?Removing benches from a public open space just penalises people who would like to make legitimate use of it.

Richard Jennings ● 5948d

Please can the council/police put on here the phone number to phone if people want to report men urinating at Little Brook Green.Would this be the parks police or the safer neighbourhoods police ? I must say I have told the police about this in the past ie phoned them to report urinators at little Brook Green.I know no police turned up because I waited for half an hour for the police to turn up so I could tell the police which man did the deed.Not entirely sure how no police could not turn up when they are based fifty yards away in osram court and 300 yards away in the police station in sheperds bush rd;maybe too busy with real crime I suppose;but police not turning up motivated me to start this thread as it is frustrating being ignored even if they had good reason not to turn up.

John Collins ● 5948d

Greg - I find your comments a bit naive to be honest.You wrote you would rather solve the problem permanently than install toilet facilities etc;you arent going to be able to solve the problem permanently not when the gov lets in every Tom Dick and Abdul into the UK.For example you write that men come to England fall on hard times and end up drinking on the streets.No.The Eastern Europeans come here and work hard.But the people who were street drinkers in Eastern Europe have come to England because they know the authorities are a soft touch here and they can get free money etc then they are street drinkers here too.And they can p-ss all over our country and get away with it.The Eastern European councils and police are delighted that their street drinkers are now in London because they Eastern European street drinkers like it in England because they get a free lunch unlike in Eastern Europe where they fall down the steps inside of the police station because "the police forgot to switch the light on and it was dark".I think you will find that the Eastern European approach to crime fighting and street drinkers does lead to the problem ending;which is why they are on Little Brook Green.Any hard working Eastern European man worth his salt will tell you that.

John Collins ● 5948d

Posh St Paul's girls school is on Brook Green.Would drunks be allowed to urinate on brook green opposite this school every half an hour everyday of the week for the last five years as they have outside social housing flats at Osram  Court at little brook green? these places are only about a 5 minute walk from each other? Or would a quick phone call from the headmistress of St Pauls school to the council and the police put a stop to this quicktime? I think we know the answer to that.What would the council do when all the well connected middle class parents who send little Tamara to a school which has the highest fees in the country started getting their husbands who are High Court Judges and the like to send an Email or phone the police and the council about how when mummy is parking her four by four car next to the school at brook green she doesnt like seeing men urinating here.How quick would the staff and parents of this school be in getting a campaign going to get the authorities to do something about this? As soon as the headmistress got a TV film crew outside the school to highlight the problem the council would be jumping through hoops to push the drunks down to little brook green outside osram court.So thats why I dont think Greg my comments are 'proposterous' more like a true reflection of England I'm afraid.Also the council are making the police look bad by allowing these problems to occur within metres of the snt police based in osram court and the police station in shepherds bush rd.No wonder locals have given up complaining in despair,whats the point in complaining they probably think its been going on for years and nothing gets done.

John Collins ● 5948d

Greg - please consider this idea: put up two signposts where the street drinkers congregate at little brook green facing the benches where the men sit.The signs would need to be written in English and in the Eastern European languages that these men speak.The signs would need to be high up off the ground and not at waist height or the men will urinate and vandalise the signs.And the signs would need to be reinforced and not flimsy or they will get vandalised.The signs would read "The nearest toilets are 200metres away located in Tesco.Anyone urinating on Little Brook Green will be arrested." When the police take the beers off the men and pour the beer down the drain they can point to the signs to make the point they arent tolerating public urination.Tesco should agree with the council to have these signs put up because lets be honest Tesco are contributing to the problem because they sell very cheap booze to these men.So agreeing to a sign like this should be acceptable to them.Tesco have a gents/ladies and disabled toilets which are open for all to use not just shop customers.As Tesco are part of the problem it seems fair that they should be part of the solution.When you say providing a room for these men to drink in cannot be justified to the tax payer;it doesnt have to be a room to drink in becasue at 'crisis at christmas' the street drinkers go to the crisis at christmas building for food a shower and new clothes and activities they are not allowed to drink or take drugs on the crisis at xmas site but the street drinkers still go there for something to do.So the police could say to the men at little brook green if we find you drinking here which is illegal we are just going to ask you to get in the police van and go to the council provided 'crisis at christmas' style day centre and if you dont agree to go there we will arrest you and take you there or the alternative is being put in a police cell.When you say that 'robust' policing takes place this is not true its not 'robust' at all as drunks allowed to openly hang around at little brook green and are not harassed by the police as they should be to go away.It is part of Eastern European mens culture to urinate in public;thats just what they are like so new ways need to be thought up to tackle this and if they wont adapt to our British culture where we dont urinate on little brook green in broad daylight then yes robust policing should happen

John Collins ● 5948d

Greg - if street drinkers do have a home as  you say maybe their home is such as dank and nasty lonely bedsit or hostel that they have to get out of it in the day.So if these men are meeting on Little Brook Green for company and to drink it makes sense to give them a hall or building to drink in;this is not hiding the problem away it is meaning they will be going to the toilet in a proper toilet and not on the grass in the middle of Little Brook Green;where OAP's womena and children  people on the top deck of the bus going by on SB Rd get  a good view.I say again the police taking away the booze from the men does not go far enough;the men just buy more beer a few minutes later.More needs to be done.Taking away the benches from Little Brook Green is a good idea to do;but it needs more creative thinking than this to get to the root of these problems.Thats why I say speak to the 'crisis at christmas' charity ie the managers who run this to try and get some more feedback and creative ideas about what to do.

John Collins ● 5948d

Greg - your answer does not satisfy me that you are solving the problem.Everytime I walked to Tesco past Little Brook Green in the past 5 years men have been urinating on Little Brook Green.I don't see this situation getting any better unless other alternatives such as the ones I have suggested are looked into.I am now satisfied by your replies that this problem will go on and on and on at Little Brook Green with no change or hope for those that live in social housing in Osram Court who have to put up with this insult to their civic pride.You say my ideas are 'prepostourous' that rather ignores the theme of the rich helping themselves ie council and police chiefs helping themselves and ignoring the poor that runs throughout the entire history of England.Bit of a tory problem really isn't it.As I said noone would be urinating on Little Brook Green if this place was opposite the palatial mansion owned by the council senior management and senior met police chiefs.The fact that you are not giving an indication that you might consider my ideas such as speaking to 'crisis at christmas' for example or considering ideas to get these people into day centres indicates to me if I come back in another 5 years men will still be urinating on Little Brook Green;but who cares the people that live next to the green are only a bunch of mini cab drivers and factory workers;so who cares.

John Collins ● 5948d

Mr Collins,There is no discrimination here and your presumption that the proximity of social housing to the specific problem you raise somehow makes a difference to the Council’s attitude is frankly preposterous.  Cracking down on crime and anti-social behaviour is the Council’s number one priority – for the whole borough.  On the issue of street drinkers H&F Council has done a great deal to combat the anti-social problem of street drinkers.  Indeed the borough-wide controlled drinking area that I introduced in November 2006 has been very successful in most areas, reducing the number of street drinkers across the borough in the region of 60%.  I accept that parts of the borough still suffer - Little Brook Green and the whole Shepherds Bush Road area being among them.  I am confident that the licensing changes will have an impact in helping solve the problem here.  On top of enforcement, street outreach workers do work with street drinkers to attempt to get them into healthcare that can solve their alcohol addiction; where there are homelessness issues help them back into housing; and help them access the services they need to get their lives back on track through training and employment.  We also work closely with a Polish charity called the Barka Foundation who help the small number of Polish people for whom their coming to Britain has not worked out and a failure to find work and/or housing has led them to fall on hard times and turn to street drinking.What won’t help the problem is your suggestion that taxpayers should fund some sort of room where street drinkers can go and get drunk indoors rather than out on the streets.  That won’t help them and it won’t solve the overall problem.  Apart from the moral problem of suggesting taxpayers should fund a facility that hides the problem away taking it out of the public eye, there is no evidence that suggests drinkers would actually go to such a room.  Research shows that most street drinkers in H&F actually do have a home to go to anyway, so it’s not a problem of not having a roof over their heads or access to a toilet.The joint approach of robust enforcement, removing the environment that sustains the street drinkers in their current ways and helping street drinkers access the healthcare services they need is the right one.  Do we need to do more around the remaining problem areas – such as doing things like removing the benches on Little Brook Green?  Clearly from your reports and the reports of many other residents, the answer is yes – and as I indicated in my first reply to you, that is what I have asked Council Officers to deliver on.I hope this clarifies my position for you and satisfies you that solving this problem is important to H&F Council.Cllr Greg SmithCabinet Member for Crime & Street SceneHammersmith & Fulham Council

Greg Smith ● 5948d

Lina - what do you think of my idea of providing these men with a day centre.Such as the day centre provided by the charity 'crisis at christmas'? Also does anyone have any contacts with crisis at christmas if so can they put details on this thread as this charity knows all about how to deal with these sort of street drinking men of whatever nationality they maybe.

John Collins ● 5949d

If the man who is the head of the police station 300 yards away from Little Brook Green in Shepherds Bush Rd  had Eastern European men urinating on the green opposite his home; for day after day after day; month afer month after month; year after year would he do something to move these men on to another location or would he let the problem continue as it has done on Little Brook Green year after year? I think the problem would not have continued like this.It's double standards.The council and the police are saying;we aren't going to sort it out for you residents of Osram Court because you live in social housing so we are treating you like second class citizens;it's always been like this in England it is class based discrimination.The police and the council have known all about this problem for years on end but they have done nothing to solve it properly.Greg is saying things "need time to bed in" I dont think anything needs time to bed in drunks having been urinating on Little Brook Green,nothing needs to "bed in" what needs to happen is that the problem is solved once and for all.Give these men somewhere to go thats off the streets not in the front garden effectively of Osram Court

Account suspended ● 5949d

Exactly, John, that's precisely the point. Moving these people on will just cause a problem elswhere. Providing them with some facilities either at Brook Green or somewhere else is surely the smarter answer.

Lina Leaman ● 5949d

Greg - installing a open air urinal here,tastefully fenced off,won't keep the street drinkers at Little Brook Green and act as a magnet for them;because they have already been at Little Brook Green for years anyway,with no urinal,and they just urinate on Little Brook Green;so they are obviously drawn like a moth to a flame to this place where they have been permanently for years anyway .Little Brook Green could do with a permanent public toilet installed on it with a toilet attendant to alert the police to the druggies and the cottagers.Surely a place where lots of public urination a good site to install a public toilet permanently?Also as the police are now based at osram court they could keep the toilet from turning into a cottage by regular visits there right next to their snt base.Yes public toilets are frequented by drug injectors and cottagers but what better place to put a new permanent toilet right by where the police are based so toilet attendant could get the police there immediately when needed

John Collins ● 5949d

Greg - how about giving the street drinkers an official place to congregate with toilet facilities and some food and showers new clothes etc.Then clamping down on anyone who is not at the official place.ie set up a day centre where these men can spend the day and let them drink there with toilet facilities.Then any men found out drinking on the street get taken to the official drinking den by the police.I mean like the place called 'crisis at christmas' this is a charity over xmas where people go and spend the day ie homeless etc.A permanent building like this.Because otherwise as mentioned the men just move from one location to the next driving residents potty.Frances said these men were drinking near his house;and he was phoning the police very often for nearly two years;so clearly the police can't stop this problem;just move the men on where they cause a nuisance elsewhere.Are there any derelict buildings in the borough you could take over temporarily until a permanent place is found this is what crisis at xmas do they take over a building on a temporary basis for the homeless men? Crisis at christmas find buildings to house the homeless could the council talk to the crisis at xmas people about setting something like this up in your bourough? Wouldnt help to ask crisis at christmas organisers if they have ideas for your borough as they are familiar with all the problems and needs of street drinkers they deal with.Could you put the safer neighbourhoods police email address on here please Frances?

John Collins ● 5949d

I'd rather solve the problem and stop street drinking altogether than put in things like public urinals that will essentially keep the drinkers there - and worst case act as a magnet for more.Cllr Greg SmithCabinet Member for Crime & Street SceneHammersmith & Fulham Council

Greg Smith ● 5949d

I have since heard back from the local Safer Neighbourhood Police.  They have actually just moved their base into Osram Court and will therefore be in a very good position to keep an eye on the situation. They are able to move drunks on, to confiscate their alcohol and to generally make it more difficult for them to congregate there.  They will also talk to Tesco and Access if they think it appropriate. Please contact them direct with any specific reports you may have.

Frances McAllister ● 5949d

I am having a guess that local people who live in Osram Court social housing might have had enough of Eastern European men urinating every half an hour or so on what is effectively their front garden ie Little Brook Green.No doubt they have given up in despair in complaining to the police and the council to ask for a portable urinal to be installed here or other solutions.So maybe they might just think lets sort the problem out with violence.Just a guess and Ive got no evidence for it but local people can only tolerate being treated like cr-p by Eastern European men and the police/local authorities who do not do what is needed to sort the problem for so long before someone snaps and thinks right I'll sort this one out today.Same as what happens in the rest of society the police dont stop crime so loads of people are incited to take the law into their own hands.I dont agree with it but only the naive would think that this mob rule situation is not very common in once law abiding and peacefull England due to police local gov and central gov failures.No evidence for this though I just guessed at this noone has told me anything to support this theory it seems like common sense though

John Collins ● 5949d

"I think the authorities are just inciting locals to sort the problem out themselves to be honest which is illegal."Maybe you can clarify what you mean by this ?

Andrew Broadbent ● 5949d

Thankyou to Mr Smith and to Frances: thankyou Mr Smith for considering the idea of removing the benches on Little Brook Green.The idea of installing an open air portable urinal such as seen in other areas of London is also an idea for Little Brook Green.Because the men are urinating here every half an hour or so all the time they are at Little Brook Green during daylight hours;maybe a portable fence could be put round the open air urinal to make it less offensive to the eye.So this idea of a portable urinal might mean at least women and kids don't need to be offended by actually seeing the men urinating.I mentioned this before but I think its a good point.In Shepherds Bush there was one of these portable urinals on shepherds bush green.It looks pretty grim these urinals but its more grim that these men expose themselves effectively while urinating in daylight hours.Installing an open air urinal is not encouragement because the council and the police are not stopping men from urinating a hell of a lot on little brook green so a practical solution is needed.If you fence off the open air urinal with portable temporary fences you can just tell the street drinkers the urinal is there and then you contain the smell of urine and offense to people to a minimum.Its important to be pragmatic now as this problem is not going away so action needs to be taken now

John Collins ● 5949d

Hi John, I think you're absolutely right in suggesting practical measures to help discourage the drinkers - for example I think Access and Tesco should both do a bit more in this respect (i.e. cleaning up their areas, securing doorways and 'hidden' parts, clearing up the litter and moving the men on etc., as should the council in respect of Osram Court (extra lighting at entrances, CCTV, caretaking, landscaping etc).  I agree it must be horrible for tenants there to have to run the gauntlet of these men as they come and go from their homes. I don't think it's a class thing though and I don't think it's helpful to make it one - I live on the Green and shared my space with a gaggle of around 18 regular drunks outside my house and in my front garden for the first two years I lived there until the benches were removed and the drinking ban imposed. Nothing happened quickly and there was a stage when I was ringing the police almost every day - for two years! The truth is that single measures are never enough and everything seems to take a long time because it's a really stubborn and difficult problem within this borough - the drunks just split up and move on and re-conregate in a new area where the whole process has to be started again. Installation of toilets or urinals has been considered before, but it has always been very contraversial because of cost and because it might be seen as encouragement. It needs a concerted multi-agency approach, police, council, alcohol unit, social services, etc. and one that is both focussed and maintained. Incidentally, I also asked our SNTs to talk to Tesco and Access too - I thought it might have more weight coming from them.

Frances McAllister ● 5950d

Over the past two and a half years, the Council's borough wide Controlled Drinking Area has brought the number of street drinkers in the borough down by over 60%.  Nevertheless, the problem still persists in pockets of the borough, such as around Shepherds Bush Road and on Little Brook Green.  So, we did look at other options and our Licensing Committee recently banned the sale of super strength beer and cider in off licences in the area – and prevented any alcohol at all from being sold before 11am.I understand your comments that the problem still persists, but the local licensing changes have only just started, so will need time to bed in.  However, that said, I will ask Council Officers to look at removing the benches in that area.Cracking down on crime and anti-social behaviour remains the number one priority of H&F Council - and I can assure you that everything will be done to ensure this particular problem is solved.Cllr Greg SmithCabinet Member for Crime & Street SceneHammersmith & Fulham Council

Greg Smith ● 5950d

Why has nobody mentioned the fact that there are no public toilets absolutely anywhere?? Trying to get the council to put in some public toilets would seem a much better solution than wasting police time. As you say, they've got far more important things to do.

Lina Leaman ● 5950d

Frances  - thankyou for supporting this thread by saying you would report this to safer neighbourhoods police,I am not a local resident myself but I cant help noticing the goings on here everytime I walk past to Tesco,its just men urinating everytime I walk by .I am glad that you think that removing the benches might help.One issue that I think is relevant here is to do with social class.The Little Brook Green is next to Osram Court a block of social housing (ie council flats);my question is if men were drinking,talking/shouting in very loud voices,urinating all day long;and occassionally fighting  would the senior executives from Hammersmith and Fulham Council put up with this behaviour if it was on the green opposite their privately owned houses? No they would not;they would think up some ideas to sort it.So it seems double standards of working class people getting a raw deal in England once again ie people who live in osram court.One aspect of this is that my guess is that police dont want to arrest these men if they see them urinating because it means they have to do paperwork,it clogs up their cells and takes them off the partols of the streets.So would it be possible for the local council to provide a room or hall where these men can sit in the day where they can drink and have toilet facilities.Because maybe these men live locally in a hostel or something and they have to get out in the day.Some kind of practical solution might be good.If its not really practical for the police to waste time on locking  up urinaters when they have real criminals to pursue.Because otherwise the problem just goes on and on and on.And this problem was discussed in 2006 thread as I mentioned here on a previous thread.The council must realise that they cant solve this problem unless they provide a hall for these men to go and spend the day.To be honest I think some local people have probably given up in despair at this problem ie they cant be bothered to complain as they complained then nothing got done.I think access self storage shop should block off the alcove by putting  up a fence as here men urinate against the wall of their shop.In front of this area is a yellow line,it could be security fenced off which might cut down on the smell or urine etc.Also if you get rid of the hedge that runs through the middle of Little Brook Green this would mean they dont urinate against the hedge,but then they just urinate against the trees which is worse!ONe other solution the council consider could be to provide one of those plastic open air urinals that they put at wet spots in london and put this in middle of little brook green by the hedge and put a fence round it for privacy or something.It cant go on like this its uncivilised

John Collins ● 5950d

I will pass this link on to the SNTs at Addison and Avonmore & Brook Green to see if they can do something.  The problem, bad as it is and revolting as it is, is actually nowhere near as bad as it was prior to the Controlled Drinking Area coming into force a couple of years ago.  I live on Brook Green so I deal with it every day. Removing the benches might help a bit (it did help on Brook Green) however, the favourite area actually seems to be on the patch of grass by the Tesco entrance and you can see the debris they leave behind there every day.  I think it would need a concerted targeted approach by the Police and Tesco and Access, moving the guys on everyday and confiscating their drink.  I will post any police response here.

Frances McAllister ● 5950d

As has already been said, it is not just isolated to one area, nor one nationality.  And unfortunately not just to drunks, I have witnessed very well dressed men (and it is mainly men although I have witnessed women) who seem to think any wall, tree, parked car is ok to pee against.  And indeed only a couple of weeks ago I witnessed a man do even worse against a tree in Dalling Road(I am hoping this was due to a dire emergency!)  I don't think this is something you will ever stop.

Carol Burge ● 5950d

The Hammersmith and Fulham councillors know this thread exists because I Emailed them to tell them about it and they have Emailed the snt police to tell them about this thread.So all the authorities know about this thread here.Osram Court is a block of social housing flats opposite Little Brook Green.It repulses me that women and children who live in these council flats have to witness Eastern European men openly urinating on what is effectively their front garden ie Little Brook Green.Maybe someone who lives in a one million pound house overlooking the Thames at Hammersmith,who gets into their expensive BMW to drive to Westfields shopping Centre with the central locking on and Radio 3 playing, where they read their Guardian newspaper over an expensive drink might say I am being racist for mentioning the nationality of the men who urinate over England's once green and pleasant land.However all these urinating men have foreign accents,they dont even have the decency to pee up against a wall,just right there where British council tenants can see them.Is there anything more sad than police from the police station 300 yards away saying to these men "do any of you speak English?" It must be so demoralising for local police and local council flat residents  to have to do go through this insult to their British pride.And the council do nothing,again and again and again.I know what you mean Jean G it's pretty sad. I think the authorities are just inciting locals to sort the problem out themselves to be honest which is illegal.

John Collins ● 5950d

This seems to be a London wide problem. In Wandsworth where I live eastern europeans seem to think it is normal to stop in the street and pee any time of the day. I have complained to the police but they do nothing

Jean Gilmore ● 5950d

I should have written you don't need to be a customer of Tesco to use their toilets;they are available for all.So there is no excuse for the street drinkers not to stagger one minute to Tesco to use them the police could tell the street drinkers.

John Collins ● 5950d

I received this Email from a LBHF councillor when I Emailed them to suggest the benches from Little Brook Green should be removed to make life more uncomfortable for street drinkers :" we have just completed an off-licence review of the off licences on the Shepherd's Bush Rd and they are now no longer able to sell high strength ciders or beers (such as White Lightening) which was attracting the street drinkers you should see a difference now this cider-beer is no longer available." ----- Yes the difference is is that the street drinkers have to drink even more low strength lager now to get drunk now they cant get high strength lager which means they go to the toilet on Little Brook Green even more than they used to.What about the residents of Osram Court the flats by Little Brook Green why should they have to put up with seeing foreign men using their neighbourhood as a toilet when good toiltes in Tesco the drunks could use?  My reply to this is that why not address the point I made which is the idea of the benches being taken away from Little Brook Green as only the street drinkers use them as they are not in a nice place to sit.After the police take the drinks off the drinkers they go and buy more beer from Tesco or the other shops.They could use Tesco public toilets which you do need to be a customer to use which is one minute from Little Brook Green but these foreign men prefer to treat our British bobbies with contempt and urinate on Little Green one minute after the police have left.To be fair though I have seen these street drinkers asking the police to arrest them;maybe to get a place to sleep and a cup of tea etc.It just looks so bad all this 300 yards from a police station in SB rD.The police could tell the street drinkers to use Tesco's public toilets and not Little Brook Green though. If the police cant stop the drinkers using little brook green they could say use tesco public toilets or you are getting arrested.

John Collins ● 5950d

put 'anti social drinking' into the forum search to read this past thread; but  if you put in 'anti social drinking in hammersmith' into the search it does not find the thread for some reason.

John Collins ● 5951d

On an old thread called 'anti social drinking in hammersmith' the issue of street drinkers at little brook green is raised by Mark Loveday from LBHF.But the problem has not been solved since this last thread along time ago.Surely a rethink of tactics is needed by the council and the police as the problem is not going away despite police taking drinks off the street drinkers.Which is why i say take the park benches away as not many ordiary people use the benches at little brook green just the drunks usually I noticed.

John Collins ● 5951d